PNW Haunts & Homicides

The Haunting Murder of Cathedral Park

March 21, 2023 Episode 102
PNW Haunts & Homicides
The Haunting Murder of Cathedral Park
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Show Notes Transcript

We're throwing you a curveball in the 9th inning.  This one has all of our usual topics covered, and also somehow - sportsing?!  Well kind of.  Thelma was a real one – truly a budding boss babe in bobby socks.  Before things went sideways Thelma was reading Babes in the Woods, to her toddler sister.  What's not great?  Well, it's our show, so mainly how her story turns out.  Setting the scene, we talk about Cathedral Park in the North Portland neighborhood known as St. Johns as well as the bridge so named.  NGL the underside of the St. Johns bridge gives some major spoopy vibes.  If you're looking for a more lighthearted adventure - check this out Take a Virtual Tour of the Trees at Cathedral Park. 

Check out the True Crime Junkiez podcast!

This week we were reminded of some episodes in our own back catalogue that we thought you might enjoy: Episodes 22, 23, & 24 about the Kidnapping of George Weyerhaeuser.  He would grow up to become a real titan of industry in the PNW and damn it if he wasn't a real charmer in stories from cradle to grave. 
Episode 49: What is Haunting You?

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As you expect, papers had dubious accounts of the officers being too busy, but in true, old, timey fashion. They were colorful descriptions fitting to the era. They were said to have been too busy Friday, over baseball scores. To begin the search any sooner, What? Is that real? Yeah. Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlyn. Hi, creepy people. Yay. Hello.

This is PNW Haunts & Homicides. It is. And we always look at each other like, wait. Who's gonna say it first? Who's gonna say it? Who's gonna remember? Who's gonna do it? I'm spooky today. You are.

You have ghost earrings and Yes. We have headphones on, so I wasn't sure if she would remember. I did remember. I pulled them all. I always remember when I see it goes. Does seem like it would be memorable. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Because I'm like it's not Halloween. Why is Caitlyn wearing ghost earrings? It's a really good question. Yeah.

Anyway, disregard moving right along. Alright. Well, I do have something that's I don't know. A little different. A little different. I like that. I like different. Yeah. I like change and growth and progress. You hate that. I don't know. Maybe. We'll see. I like it. It can be good. Oh my goodness. Are you ready for this? I think so. Cassie knows more than usual, but not very much. Yeah, not very much. I am glad to have had kind of a sort of a palate cleanser with the Saint Patrick's Day episode from you. Yes. And then this one is not great. Okay. But the next one is gonna be truly terrible. Great. So you're like building up. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I thought I would try that. Okay. So something to look forward to. Yay. Yay. Yay. You can't see our faces, but yeah. Alright. Should we get into it? Let's do it. What are we talking about today? While?

Thelma Taylor, born December twelfth of nineteen thirty three, was a fifteen year old sophomore at Roosevelt High School in Portland, Oregon. Oh, Portland. Part long Good old, Portlandia. Portlandia. I like to say it like that. Like, it's a strange foreign country. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Oregoness. Yeah. For a second, I thought you said Oregon. Like, when people from out of state say Oregon -- Oh, like a combination of Oregon and goddess. Nope. That was just me not pronouncing my words all the way. Can we make t shirts that say Oregoness Or what we could do? Oregon goddess. Yeah. Ore-goddess. Oh, my god. There we go. My god. Wow. We're geniuses. Wow. Wow. We're gonna talk about Thelma now. Okay. I'm okay with that. I probably won't have any other sparks of genius for the rest of the day. So I'll stick with my notes. Alright.

In August of nineteen forty nine, she'd intended to pick up a summertime job picking beans as she stood waiting for the bus in the Saint John's neighborhood. Picking beans? Picking beans. You pick beans? I guess so. I learned that as well. I guess I never thought about it. Never did. She would take the bus from there in Saint John's all the way out to Hillsborough. Okay. I know where that is? Yeah. Sure do.

At around four thirty AM, Thelma Ann Taylor had encountered someone that would alter her course. Morris Leland was a twenty two year old ex convict. She died in the morning hours of the following Saturday, August sixth of nineteen forty nine. Yeah. Also, you are waking up in time to be anywhere at four thirty AM. During summer break. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Dedication. I lived in Hillsboro. As a teenager, and I couldn't have woken up at four thirty to be in Hillsboro at four thirty. Yeah. That's true. Couldn't do it.

Thelma's parents were beside themselves with grief before even learning of her death. Oh, wait. What? This is really sad. Oh, you really like the name thelma? I know. They'd urged the Portland, please. To search the wooded areas surrounding Saint John's from where they would later confirm that she had been taken. The police were said not to have commenced search efforts until Saturday morning, claiming that is when they were contacted by thelma's parents. Now remember that it is significant. Okay.

As you expect, Papers had dubious accounts of the officers being too busy, but in true, old, timey fashion, they were colorful descriptions fitting to the era. They were said to have been too busy Friday of a baseball scores, to begin the search any sooner than what? Yeah. Is that real? Yeah. They actually said that. Yeah. Sure did. Cool. Okay. Listen. This is why I just cannot get behind the sporting, and the sports balling. Right. There's a woman missing and murdered.

In all seriousness, it gets a bit more like a poorly written period piece, which I guess technically it is. That newspaper article, Wowsers. I've got some other quotes from it. So Okay. This will be fun. Kinda.

Now, this next part, at least to me, seemed a somewhat out of place line of questioning. One particular news writer wondered, what the Canadian mounties would have done in a similar situation? Why did Why? I Maybe there's additional context that's missing that would have made this specific germaneness of this commentary clear. Somehow, it's not entirely obvious. But maybe in the P and W near the end of World War two, at the time that this would have been I don't know. Maybe that would have made sense. But I'm not entirely sure why this is brought up or how exactly it's relevant. If there's something going on with the mounties that we should be aware of, please let us know. I I don't know.

Did they say it in a, like, a snarky way? Like, oh, when a day of that? Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Hoya. Interesting.

Furthering the query, the article wonders aloud. Broadly, what can be done? Does it matter? Thelma is gone now. Yeah, it matters. To me, it's very reminiscent of the reporting from when we covered the foreclosure kidnapping back in episodes twenty two to twenty four. Yes. Very old time. Yeah. Yeah. See?

Thelma had a three year old sister and papers told a heart wrenching account of how the poor young girl didn't quite understand what had happened to thelma. Well, no. She believed her sister would be returning still. She's so young. I know. It honestly kind of makes me think, okay, but what did they tell her? You know? Yeah. She's very little, but they probably didn't explain it very well, you know. That's what I'm thinking. Oh. Thelma had begun a story with her the week prior to her disappearance and murder. Her sister was very excited to hear the end of, babe, in the woods. No. To be honest, I wasn't familiar with the story, but knowing how this one turns out. It feels an awfully ominous title. Is it a real story or was it when she was like, making up. It's a real story. Oh, wow.

Thelma's family held out hope for her safe return even after she had been missing for six whole days, but that would change in an instant. On August eleventh, Morris Leland was arrested on suspicion of driving a stolen vehicle. But he would quickly confess to far more. He wasn't a suspect in thelma's disappearance at the time, but things were about to seriously escalate. On the way to the police station, he told the arresting officer sergeant Vern Nicholson that he wanted to speak with homicide detectives about information he knew about a murder. Okay. It's always suspicious. Exactly.

I'm guessing that guy was like, oh, shit. This is not just a regular stolen car, is it? When he spoke to them, he alleged that Thelma had accompanied him willingly, at least initially. I love how they always try to say that. It's getting old. Even if that was true, We know how this ends. It doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

Now, it's plausible that she had agreed to accompany him to the banks of the Willamette River, picturing a day of frivolity on the Beach Riverfront. However, most accounts of their meeting disagree outright stating as a point of fact that he forcibly abducted her And I'm inclined to agree that seems most likely. Howard Bauchner: Right. I agree with you. It's pretty tough to know. But -- Yeah. -- can't.

When she rejected his advances, he said that he got scared because, quote, she was a good girl and would make trouble. If he let her go. Now, I assume this is a reference to the fact that he attempted to make a move on her or to rape her. And her response being that number one, she was repulsed by him as Rape is often find to be the case. But also, number two, the fact that she also apparently revealed that she was a virgin. Basically at this point, I'm just thinking, Damn. If being a good girl is what gets you killed by some illogical psychopath, How pissed are you? Right. Also, that's one hell of a way to assert that you prefer a bad girl Rude Leland?

At that point though, he ceased in his sexual advances But in this case, of course, as we know, he had no intention of letting her go. As we know, just because he ceased the sexual advances, which I mean, that assumes a lot. Didn't mean that his intentions were in any way honorable. Can't imagine so? No. He kept her hostage for over twenty four hours beginning early Friday morning and into the following Saturday morning. Despite being in a somewhat isolated location in an undeveloped area of Portland, Thelma wasn't prepared to give up when a shred of hope presented itself for escape. No. I don't wanna hear it. This is the part you've heard before. Okay. She desperately began screaming for help. When she heard workers at the nearby train yard. No. I just got really intense chills. You got chilly willis? Mhmm. Oh.

At around eight AM on Saturday, Leland and Thelma were wedged into brush near the roadside where he reportedly found a metal bar. So convenient. Just an aside, can we please clean up after ourselves, particularly in the case of a would be make shift murder weapon of opportunity? Yeah. Just saying, do you think he really found it there though, or he had it? I think from the sounds of it, it would have been too sizable for him to have had that on his person. Okay. In a way that would be covert. Okay. Morris Leland had beaten Thelma on the head with the steel bar and stabbed her twice with a knife. One source reported that Leland stabbed thelma in the heart, and her skull had been crushed in the attack. And I'm not describing that for shock value by any means, but it's because we'll come back to that. Okay. And so it was August eleventh, the very same day as his arrest that Leland led.

Detective Noel Ek, and sergeant Dan Matola, Thelma's body hidden under a log pile. Oh gosh, under a log pile. Mhmm. How how? Well, This is the trouble with the p and w. As we think of log, we think, like, lumberjack, like -- Right. -- tree An entire tree. Yeah. Just off St. Jones Avenue, it was there, eight blocks north of the St. Jones Bridge. That poor thelma was found. Leland had thrown both the seal bar and knife into a nearby river after wiping his fingerprints off, thelma's lunch pail, and disposing of his cigarette butts. Into the river. Come on. Yeah. Curiously, I did find that both the knife and scabbard along with the iron bar according to the Oregonian's November fourth reporting on the nineteen forty nine Court proceedings, were entered into evidence. Okay. So I don't know. Maybe, Leland had a weak throwing arm. Leland. Either way, he's the worst, and there's no crying in baseball.

Thelma was still fully clothed in the outfit she'd been wearing when she went missing. This girl woke up at an ungodly hour and said, I'm gonna go pick some beans to make some summer spending money, but that doesn't mean I'm not about to absolutely fucking slay this look. She wore a plaid shirt, Levi's jeans and Bobby socks. What are Bobby socks? Bobby socks. Cassie, Google, Bobby socks right now. What are Bobby socks? Who's Bobby? And why do we have his socks? Not Bobby socks. We don't want booby socks. No. We don't want booby socks. So, like, little ruffly socks. Yeah. K. Devil waste raffles. Cute. They're fresh. To go pick beans in this She's like, I'm gonna have a delicate, little, girly touch. That was the look. Bobby socks were the shit. I think we should bring it back. I know. I feel like for the time that look was chic as hell. Yeah. Found in her possession still were both an invitation to bible school, and her farm produce work carts, still safely tucked into her billfold. Freaking billfold you guys is like my favorite old timey but not outlandishly odd nomenclature other than Davenport. Okay? It literally feels like all of my grandparents are in the room right now. Oh, but I digress.

The chief of detectives William Brown reflected on the case in a manner that hardly left room for any warm, fuzzy feelings. Like my grandparents are here. No matter how hard one might try, and I tried. You guys believe me I tried. Anyways, he said, it is the most cold blooded case I've ever had. Oh. The day after his arrest on August twelfth, lieutenant Carl Crisp. Crisp. Carl Crisp. He makes me think of the brits because they say crisps. Crisps. He was quoted as saying that Leland didn't show any agitation or emotion. No shit. Yeah. Now anyone who's going to kill a young girl like this, I'd argue that's a correct assessment, but we're going to hear it again. Because apparently, in the nineteen forties, that bear repeating.

Morris Leland, just twenty two time was swiftly booked on first degree murder charges. On August eighteenth, he was indicted by a grand jury for that charge. At the time of his arrest, Leland had already served two prison sentences one for conspiracy to commit a felony, and for obtaining money under false pretenses. He also had a juvenile record. Not shocking. No. But he's only twenty two. Like, she's only not been in juvenile for, like, five minutes. Yeah. Wow. So that's cool.

Deputy District Attorney at the time, John Collier, confirmed that the state would pursue the death penalty for Morris Leland when his trial began on October twenty seventh of nineteen forty nine. Leland would be sentenced to death on January twentieth. Damn. Yes. Upon hearing the verdict of death, Leland reportedly beyond. Wow. When later asked what he thought of the verdict, he was quoted as saying, that's business. What a weirdo. Yeah. Well, ain't that some shit. I told you we'd come back to the brutality of the attack against Thalma. Okay. And here we are. Because to me, I just wonder how do you perpetrate that level of violence against another human, specifically a child. And then behave this way in response to being brought to justice.

As is often the case, following a defendant being sentenced to death, Morris Leland's defense counsel. Filed a motion to appeal for a new trial. Ultimately, that proved unsuccessful. Does he even care? Like, it doesn't seem like he cares? Doesn't seem like it. Does it? Judge James w Crawford. Denied the motion at an informal meeting in his chambers. Then I imagine he poured himself a glass of scotch lit a cigar, and smacked his secretary's ass. Having felt that he had done his good deed for that day, Oh my god. They'll be sure you painted. Very mad men. Yeah. This whole era. It's earlier the mat listen, I know historically that's not a hundred percent accurate. Just whatever. Moving on now. Never seen it. Yeah. I know we've gone through this. What? Okay.

In any case, not to be deterred, Leland's defense attorney, Thomas h Ryan, said that he would seriously consider taking up an additional appeal in the case with the state Supreme Court at that time. Which is, like, for why. Right? Yeah. I don't know. The basis for the appeal was the argument that the Oregon law, which required a defendant who decided to plead innocent by insanity to prove his insanity beyond a reasonable doubt was unconstitutional. I guess the logic was basically okay crazy. Sure. You're innocent. Just prove to us that you're crazy. I mean, the lack of emotion might Yeah. I mean, an appeal would automatically say his ex accretion until the higher Oregon court could rule in the case.

On April sixth of nineteen fifty one, The Oregon Supreme Court granted a state of execution for just over a month in order to allow time for Leland's defense attorney to appeal his death sentence for the murder of Selma to the United States Supreme Court. Prior to the state of execution being granted, he was set to be executed on April twentieth, in the Oregon State Penitentiaries gas chamber for the murder he commit near the St. John's Bridge. Adjacent to the Willamette River. Oh, the gas chamber. Yikes.

On Monday, January fifth of nineteen fifty three, the Eugene Register Guard announced that Morris Leland's execution was set for that very Friday. Okay. So I guess they didn't win. Oh, right. Okay. The warden, Virgil O'Malley, revealed that a new gas chamber had been finalized as part of an adjoining area to a new building that had just been completed. The very first time that it was to be used, it was set to be a double execution. Both Morris Leland and John Payne, who had killed during the commission of a robbery, the clerk of a grocery store. Had exhausted their appeals. Okay.

Previously, the gas chamber had been located outside the prison wall and had only been used in one execution. At the time, this man's attorneys had argued against the legality of his execution based on whether or not it was permissible to use a chamber that was located outside. I don't understand this. So the gas chamber is located technically outside the prison walls. So it's like like a jurisdiction type of thing. Basically, they're like, well, listen, you can't just kill people anywhere. It's gotta be on prison grounds. Right. I guess.

It was the crux of their argument. Okay. I mean, I could sort of sea. I mean, you're grasping its straws here, my dude. But they built this new one inside or was the new one outside? The new one was inside. Okay. Yeah. Is that why they built the new one? I have to imagine yes. As far as arguments go, it's pretty much the furthest reach I've ever heard. It almost makes it sound like the crux of their position was the old standby of real estate. The real estate creed. Location, location, location. Like, is that that's all you got? I mean, that's all they could find. So I mean, that, listen, loitered.

Far more upsetting than the back and forth of the legal rigmarole was the fact that aside from blaming his violent malfeasance on a self diagnosed mental illness. Leland really never did give any sort of explanation for the crime. Beyond the so called Good girl must die, rational. That is just the weirdest thing to say. Yeah. Sure is. In Salem, at the Oregon State penitentiary, on January ninth of nineteen forty three, Morris Leland was put to death. Executed by the gas chamber.

Now, if you're local to the Portland area, it will come as no surprise to you that the site of the gruesome murder that took place underneath the Saint John's Bridge all those years ago is an area that's very familiar. As it's quite frequently photographed all the time. That land is now part of a public park that opened in May of nineteen eighty cathedral park. It's so pretty. It's beautiful. Every year, people flock to this beautiful spot for photo sessions. It's even become a pretty popular spot for outdoor weddings. Mhmm. I've been there before when there was they were setting up for a wedding. I was doing a photo sheet there. One of some really three or four. And they were setting up for an outdoor wedding. You know, there's, like, one spot where you can see -- Yeah. -- through the bridge. We'll post pictures, and you don't know. But Yeah. So that's so pretty. It's beautiful. It also has a number of walking trails and outdoor stage area and even features a floating dock that actually extends onto the Willamette River.

Willamette. Not will it? Will it. Thelma Taylor was leaned to rest in the Park Rose neighborhood of Portland at Columbia Cemetery. Mhmm. You might be inclined to think that's where the story ends. But there's a tiny bit more that I felt like pushes Portland over the top for absolute creepiest city in the modern era. What cathedral park? Has been a featured stop of the ghost land tour of haunted places in the city of Portland. Haunting? Handed? What? Yes. This next excerpt is taken from America's haunted road trip. I've I've been there before.

Over the decades, many people have reported hearing a young girl's voice calling help. Somebody help me, please. No. Are you sure it wasn't a real person who needed help? I mean, I hope they checked. I hope they checked. I hate that. They went on to say cathedral park is a hangout after dark for the younger generation who want to party have a few beers and the like. So many of these stories must be questioned if only because alcohol is involved. But it is not only inebriated young people who have reported the ghostly voices and apparitions they say, dart quickly around the place. Are are we sure they're not bats, you guys? Do do bat do bat dark and they dart quickly. They don't speak. No. No. I mean, they They make bad sounds. They make bad sounds. Yeah. Yeah. They're just bad. They're just bam. Why am I scared? I feel like I'm in your shoes. Yeah. Many paranormal researchers say, that the area surrounding cathedral park has been primed for a haunting. And the flowing water of the river and the limestone blocks used to build Saint John's Bridge all are associated with a residual haunting. I was gonna say that.

Residual Hunting is a new term made popular by paranormal television for an old para psychological theory proposed in the nineteen seventies. Called the stone tape theory. This theory speculates that inanimate materials such as stone can absorb energy from the living. Much as the tape recorder absorbs the voice of the living, especially during episodes of high tension, anxiety, and fear. Yeah. Once this energy is stored, it can also be released resulting in the display or replay of the recorded events. Yeah. We talked about that in the the what's haunting you. Yeah. Yeah. We have. This is another direct quote from the article. Oh, I can't wait. We have to postulate that very emotional scene has somehow become registered on the environment. Almost like a sort of psychic video has been created. Late Scottish paranormal researcher Archie Roy was quoted as saying about stone tape theory.

In the two thousand eleven, book ghost by Malcolm Day. Oh. Someone who comes along, who is sensitive enough, acts as a sort of psychic video player. And will actually play that tape and see the figures or perhaps even hear the voices. Yeah.

So Cassie -- Yes. -- on an unrelated matter. Do you wanna go on a field trip? Totally. I'll go back. I've been there multiple times. Never like a loan. I mean, I've been there alone but never, like, with nobody else around. Yeah. There was other people there enjoying the park. I've never been to cathedral park. Oh, that's kind of surprising. Uh-huh. Yeah.

I have driven in the area, and I've seen the bridge, and it's always struck me as more spooky than beautiful. It is it does kind of have a spooky quality because it does get foggy over there a lot. Yeah. So in the bridge is foggy and it's like that green color. So it's it's a little bit spooky. It's very haunting. Yeah. But it's also so gorgeous. And when the sun's out -- Yeah. -- so pretty. Even then. It does get chilly. So under under the bridge, I'm not sure exactly where this happened. The popular spot is right under the bridge. And then sure shaded. Yeah. Yeah. And that spot just kinda seems, you know, it's a little uneasy, but you're also in downtown Portland basically. Mhmm. So that could be the reason as well.

Your woman alone in a park, you know. Yeah. I think we should go. Yeah. Society. I I'm afraid it's gonna be, like, Dick Road. Were you gonna feel, like, uneasy and wanna go. Yeah. Yeah. And wanna go, like, I don't not like, I wanna go there, like, I wanna leave. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it in pictures, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Really? Yeah. Bring protection stones with you? Yeah. Okay. Well Yes, ma'am. You're the sensitive one that would set off the recording. So yeah. I sure won't.

I've built a shell around my house and I'm just fine living in my shell. I'm convinced that's why I don't you're a crab. Paranormal activity because I'm a crab, and I live inside my shell. I think you just want it too badly. It's like I do and I don't. Yeah. I think most paranormal things or, like, kind of a fuck boy about.

That's their strategy is, like, Like, you can't be too thirsty about it. Yeah. I try. I don't know. I don't want it. I want nothing to do with it. And it's like, oh my god, you're so hot right now. It's midnight. They're texting you. Yeah. Basically. You what? Three AM. Okay. We should be isn't Toro? That was weird. Toro at the same time. We're a child. Yeah. We should. We should do it. Because I need to know what I'm getting myself into. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Alright. So we've come to our taro reading four.

Cathedro park and You really really like that name. It's so freaking cute. I know. I kept thinking of thelma and Louise. Yeah. That's probably why I like it. Yeah. K. Okay. I've put the energy. You're putting the energy. All the creepy people are putting their energy. K. What did we get? Queen of Pentacles. In reverse. Oh, there's a bunny on it. Bunny. It's almost Easter. Oh. Oh, boy. When you guys see the altar for Easter, you're going to shake your pants, which is apparently shitting your pants as a common thread. Of late. No. Some money. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Is funny.

I really like this card. So she's sitting on, like, a stone thrown, which is interesting because you talked about the stone. Line stone. And then there's, like, little goats on it. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. I was like, there's not a goat. Like carved onto the stone. Carved into the stone. I thought there was a goat. On the card. And I was like, that's a rabbit. Yeah. There's a bunny. It's interesting. It's a white bunny. I don't know the significance of that, but it makes me think of, like, an innocent little, like, good. Oh, you know? Yeah. She's the Bonnie. Yeah. Oh, no. She's protected by this glorious queen. Well, what were you as sleep that day hung over? I mean, now she's protected. You know? Oh. Yeah. Okay.

Queen of pentacles, our keywords are comfort, security, wealth, generosity, managerial ability, and of course, our favorite buzzword Cassie Can you guess fertility? Oh, okay. Just fucking constantly. Yeah. Like the king, the queen of pentacles often appears seated on a throne wearing rich garments and a crown. I mean, that fits for thelma. Some decks show her gazing down at a pentacle in her lap symbolizing fertility.

This card may also represent an actual person, usually a mature woman whose intelligent serious and strong. Also, thelma, where she gotta do everything around here? How old was thelma? Sixteen? I feel like maybe that's she would have -- Yeah. -- you know? Okay. We've gotten extra exert says earth mother. We often refer to our planet as mother earth, and witches consider the Earth to be feminine. In the writer weight smith deck, the queen of pentacles sits in a beautiful landscape. Which indicates her strong connection with nature. She's the ultimate earth mother. I I feel like it's spooking me out just because she was like literally about to go like collect harvest. Yeah.

When reversed, the queen of pentacles may indicate a questionable financial situation. Sometimes it shows a lack of understanding in money matters, mismanaging property, reckless spending, or hoard thing. Mhmm. We didn't get it in reverse. Right? We did. We did? Yeah. I pulled it in reverse.

Envy or manipulation may exist when this card appears reversed. It can also suggest indulgence, and laziness, or it may represent caretaker burnout. In a reading about money, the reversed queen says, you're not dealing with money matters in a constructive, realistic way. An investment or business venture may be shady or won't pay off, like stealing a car. Because you're gonna get arrested. Did it say something about him be, like, stealing money too in the past? Mhmm. Yeah. Your finances may be unstable, or an advisorpartner may not be reliable. If the reading is about work, you may feel insecure in your job slash status and engage in questionable behavior to hold on to your position. Sounds about right. Yep. Sometimes this card can indicate you've sold your soul for security and feel trapped and unfulfilled as a result.

In a reading about love, the reversed queen suggests an unhappy relationship based on security status or wealth. In some cases, it represents sexual access, obsession, or trading sex for financial benefits. I mean, I feel like that could translate into What happened? I don't like it. I don't like that either. I kind of feel like I wanna look in this littler book? Mhmm.

Queen of Pinnacle's. The queen is rich in more ways than one. She has a stable, simple life, and she is filled with things, people, and activities that bring her joy. She is nurturing and generous, seeks to bring happiness and provide a sanctuary to those she loves, If you are the queen, it is time to be nurturing and caring. It could be as simple as taking some time to cook a meal. For a good friend or buying a cute plant for someone special. Be kind it suits you. I kinda feel like that like, the right side upside is kind of like her energy and the the flip side is his Definitely had, like, this caretaker energy.

I mean, when you think about she was reading this story her sister -- Yeah. -- which was babe in the woods. And this is like the queen of pentacles, the mother earth, Yeah. You know, she's out there to pick beans and she's reading the story about, you know, a woman in the woods. And I feel like that's where you see I don't know. It's like it's very symbolic. Yeah.

Did it not say anything about the rabbit? I I guess it didn't. That's interesting. I'm curious. I just wanna look up real quick what a what a white rabbit means. I have a feeling. I know what the symbolism is of a rabbit. Oh my god. Shut the fuck up. Does it say something about it? In the upright? In the upright. An undertaking should bear fruit if nurtured carefully. This is the Harvest card. Oh, wow. That's interesting. Oh my gosh. That's really creepy. Oh, I guess, bunny symbolized fertility. That makes sense. And to talk about that, Yeah. Oh my gosh. I get it. This card in the upright position It says in a reading about love, the queen suggests a mature, sincere relationship you enjoy sensual and sexual pleasure.

Oh. Creature comforts financial security and the good things in life. And clearly, we know at least one of those things was not part of Thelma's life. No. Just from the perspective that she was a child -- Yeah. -- still, I mean, you know, she's a teenager, but in nineteen forty nine, Oh, boy. Wow.

And I thought it's so interesting that they made such a big deal about how, oh, she's a good girl and you know, that came up when he was speaking to her, but that makes so much sense that this card comes up in the reverse. Knowing that. Yeah. It's interesting that this is like one of those cards. That's the reverse is like the opposite because sometimes it's not Yeah. I mean, in some respects it is. And then in some, it still has it is it it I don't know. That's so funny. It did it did play out that in some ways it's very much the direct opposite and then some pieces of it still hold true where it's like that mother earth and care taking energy. Yeah. Well, wow.

You did a haunting, Caitlin. Good job. Yeah. Only because I just saw that there was not that much about it. I'm proud of you. And I was like, yay. I'll only have to talk about it for like a whole minute.

Did you have a nightmare? No. That's good. Not yet. There's still time. No. Yeah. Well, I mean, I will be reporting to the scene of the crime. So we'll see.

Oh, should we pull a card if Caitlin should go or not? Okay. Yeah. You do it. K. There we go. There you are, friend. Should Caitlyn go to Cathedral Park. Uh-huh. I just Okay. This is weird. You should bring flowers with you. Okay. I got nine of cups. Oh, it's another nine. That's so weird. Cups is really like intense energy this week for us. She's sitting on like a stone bench. Nine of cups.

Keywords are, wishes come true, good luck, happiness, abundance, and generosity, often called the Wish card. The nine of cups is one of the most fortunate of all cards and bodes well in any reading. And I saw you pick the card, but, like, did you have, like, is that one marked? Or No. Okay. It's just my magic. Some decks show a wealthy person, perhaps a tavern owner or inn keeper, sharing his or her largess with others, filling their cups. Upright, it says, you've achieved a position of comfort, abundance, and happiness. Now, you eagerly share your warmth, love, good cheer, and other goodies with people you care about. Sharing goodies like bringing flowers. The universe is smiling on you.

In a reading about money, you can expect good fortune when this card appears. An investment pays off, you get a raise, maybe even win the lottery. Okay? Well, I will be going on the off chance that is accurate. Someone just won sixty dollars. That's oh my god. You did. Yeah. Rather than hoarding your loop however, you share some with others. Weird. Okay? If the reading is about your job, the nine of cups suggest a promotion or landing the job of your dreams. You feel fulfilled, happy, and inspired in your work. Whatever you undertake brings success. I think it's saying, like, your password. I maybe. So, yes, you should go. We're being successful in whatever we're doing. In a reading about love, you've learned to open your heart and enjoy a rich rewarding love life.

This card may describe a joyful, emotionally fulfilling, committed relationship or an abundance of romantic partners. Oh, okay. Oh, there's an extra excerpt. Okay. This is Deepak Chopra. Right? We've heard from him before. Nature is held together by the energy of love. Yes, it is. Nature, you're going out into nature. I guess I am.

I'm looking I'm looking for something that says, like, no. Don't go. I'll read what this says. Maybe it says that. Okay. Treat yourself. You've been killing it lately and you deserve a nice reward after your success and accomplishments. Throw a party By yourself something nice, have a spa day. Do something you want to only for you. Show yourself the love you deserve.

Oh, funny how we just talked about Caitlyn needing self care. I don't know what that is, and I resent the implication. I think you should treat yourself to a nice day out. Okay. So I should go to the park. Bring flowers and good energy with you to the park for thelma. Okay.

Don't be scared of thelma. It's just thelma there. No thelma seems true. Or bring bring good energy to her bad energy because I don't think her spirit is there. I think it's her traumatic energy there, so just show it back. A little bit of love.

I think if there's anything there, it's definitely What's the term I'm looking for? It's like the residuals? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's residual energy. It's not her bad energy. It's the bad energy from what happened if that's what you feel. I think it's still like a part of her though. Yeah. So if you show up and you're scared of her, I feel like that just adds to the negative. So maybe if you show up and you're like, hey, Bringing you flowers hanging out. Yeah. Showing you love in this beautiful park. I like flowers. Yeah. Take pictures. Okay. Okay? I think that worked out good. I liked that. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I like it. I like a lot. Okay. Should we do that thing? Let's do the thing. Let's do it. Have a creepy ass day. See you next Tuesday. Bye. Bye. Goodbye. We're weird. Yep. It's still on my mushroom. Hello it.

So for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest? Yes. We would love to read them on the pod. Yes. We will read them out loud. Not just in our heads. Yes. They don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest if you would like to share. Email us at It's all spelled out no special characters. Super duper easy peasy. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Same thing as the email at PNW Haunts & Homicides, all spelled out no special characters. Please also rate and review us on whatever plot form you're listening to and check out our stories on social media because our main game is hot. Agreed. And if you agree like Caitlyn, you can also find us on Patreon and support the show. Bitchin, Okay. Do it already. God. Oh, you scared anyway.