Hate Crime in Washington County

Loni Kai was a vibrant, friendly, well-liked young woman.  She has also graced the 5 of Hearts in a cold case deck of cards.  Loni was born Lorenzo Okoruru in the Mariana islands, but by 2001 she was living in the Hillsboro/Aloha area of Oregon with some of her extended family that lovingly supported her whole heartedly.  This one hits close to home, quite literally.  On August 26th as she tried to make her way home in the early morning hours after a fun night out on the town the unthinkable would happen.  Across the country, tragedy would strike again just a few days later and though she’s not been forgotten by those that loved her, Loni’s case made very little progress.  All these years later Loni’s family still have no answers and have yet to see justice done for the heinous crime.  This week we're lucky to have special guest, Kate Wallinga the host of Ignorance was Bliss join us today, bringing her unique perspective as a forensic psychologist.  We may not have solved the case but we have to believe that it’s never too late.  

If you have any information about this case, please reach out to the Washington County Sheriff’s Office at (503) 846-2500  or call Crime Stoppers Oregon (503) 823-4357.

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Transcript

0:00:01
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0:01:17
I'm Raven Rollins, and this is my Southern True Crime podcast I discuss cases for my former hometown. Aida, Oklahoma paints itself as an average community, but its history of murder and corruption runs deeper than any stories ever told. You'll hear plenty of special guests, including authors and experts in their fields, who visit with me on each episode as well as other cases in the southern states. With notorious and unknown cases alike, Every victim sees the light on my show. This is sirens, a true crime podcast. You guys. We're back. And don't worry. We did get more wine. Whoa, of course. Hi, Cassie. Hi, Katelyn. Hi, creepy people. Oh, so hi to me. Hi. Hi, Kate. Wallinga? Yes. Oh, nailed it. Beautiful. We have Kate Wallinga joining us today from ignorance was bliss. That's me? Hello? That's yay. Thank you for letting me come play. Thanks for coming to play. We're very, very excited to have you. I would love it if you'll tell people a little bit about your show and a a little bit about your incredibly interesting background. Sure. I'm a forensics psychologist by trade. And so, you know, have hung out with serial killers knowingly and on purpose. That was the thing that has happened. And forensic psychology is not as fun or sexy in the moment as as people think it is. Because it's a lot waiting. It's a lot of, like, if you've ever done jury duty or anything to do with the court system, You understand that it's hurry up and wait, and I did a lot of that. And it's a lot of writing and it's a lot of whatever, but it's also talking to people. And I loved it. It was it was where my heart was.

0:04:01
And then in twenty fourteen, I broke my back. Terrible ideas. Don't do that? Not Raymond. No. Zero and a zero stars. Absolutely.

0:04:11
And so I spent How about four years moping? Like, I'm like, when I set my mind to something I do it. You know what I'm saying? And so I decided I was going to feel sorry for myself, and I did it all caps for four years. And I have four children. And my I've been married for a thousand years, and my father moved in with us. And I reached a point where I was like, I don't have a life of my own anymore. Like as soon as you know, it's daylight as soon as somebody crosses the threshold of my bedroom door. I'm fair game for people.

0:04:52
And so on New Year's Day, twenty eighteen, I went up to my husband and depending on who was telling the story, I either gently tapped him on the shoulder. Alright. Ram them by the shirt collar and fold them in real clothes. He said, I'm going to start a podcast. And being a smart man, his answer was, okay. Yes, dear. You need anything for me, and I'm like, I need you to leave me alone. Because I just I needed a hobby that made me feel relevant and smart and competence again and also forced them to not talk to me -- Yeah. -- for a while. Like, that was really important. And so I initially, it was gonna be a, like, true crime adjacent deal. I was gonna explain to people what forensic psychology was and what it wasn't. I figured twenty episodes, and I'd be done. I have recently released I think it was episode four hundred and fifty eight. Wow. It's been a little while. Yeah. It's been five it's five years now, a million downloads. So it seems it's doing pretty well, you know?

0:06:02
After about maybe six months or a year, I decided for various reasons that I didn't only wanna do true crime? Sure. That's fair. Both because I I sort of surprising the the first the first crossover I ever did when somebody was not planned. I was literally sitting on my couch texting with somebody. And she was like, why don't we go to record right now? Oh, I love that. Okay.

0:06:29
And I the first couple of my episodes are very scripted and narrative and crimey. And focused, and that's not me. Like, none of that is me. I'm not very focused or narrative or controlled. And after each of those first early episodes, I was tired when I was done, and after this first collaboration, I was pumped up. Like, this is fun.

0:06:54
And so I started talking to other true crime creators. And then from there, it branched out to you know what? I don't wanna only do crime. I wanna talk to other podcasters I admire, which then became authors and actors. And kind of anybody.

0:07:13
Like, I I tell people I'm a pod slut, like, ultimate thing you're done. I wanted to talk to all different kinds of people. Different ways. And so I walk in with it every time, like, I don't know what we're gonna talk about because I just I feel like if I can help somebody understand what it is like to be a podcaster or a parent or to have anxiety or like one guy that's been on my show more than once is calling me from a contraband cell phone in a maximum security prison in Mississippi. And he talks about the murder he he committed, and he talks about what he's doing behind bars now. And I feel like if I can make any of that understandable. It's not that much bigger of a leap for you to understand how violent crimes or serial murder happens. And so there are times that I forget that, like, right. Normal people don't know about this stuff. So -- Right. -- like my job is to make normal people think.

0:08:10
I love that, especially if I can make them a little bit uncomfortable at the time. Right. Bring it on. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's a little bit. I mean, on a very different, I would say, scale, maybe is a good way to just describe it. I mean, that's a little bit of what we do at least with each other. Make each other uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:34
Because when we started our show, I wanted to cover true crime. And for Cassie, it was absolutely nonnegotiable that She wouldn't cover True Crime, and she would absolutely cover the paranormal. And we basically cover each other's no no topics. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Very good. Well, we're very excited to have you with us today, and Cassie's probably gonna be really mad at me. But I'd like to think that I came through with a case that is a little bit unique. And unfortunately, for her, it is quite dark. That's fine. I'm here. You didn't need to sleep tonight. Right? Like -- Right. -- that that wasn't the thing. Okay. No. Okay. No. Overrated. Sorry. I'm just gonna get into it. Like, it was ready as I'll ever be. I know. It's not gonna get any easier. I'm sorry.

0:09:33
Today, we're going to talk about Lonnie Kai, who was born Lorenzo, Okaruru, on the Mariana Islands. She was born biologically male, but knew from a very young age that she was not a boy. On August twenty sixth of two thousand one, when her untimely and brutal passing occurred, Her legal name was still technically her dead name. Sadly, I do think the same can probably be sad for a lot of victims of violence in this particular corner of the alphabet mafia. Mhmm. It's a marginalized community, and I think a lot of times some of those things are maybe not as formal and that just kind of breaks me hard a little bit knowing how the rest of this story goes.

0:10:34
But let's talk a little bit more about Lonnie's background. Before we get into this, too deeply and I break Cassie's heart because she seemed to be a remarkable individual by the assessment of basically everyone around her. As I mentioned, Lonnie was born on an island. Specifically, she was born on Saipan, which is part of the northern Mariana Islands, and that's a commonwealth of the United States. I was like, I need to know a little bit more about this. I don't really know anything about the Mariana Islands. So I was gonna say I don't even know where they're at. I don't want to trench. Right? Like this. Exactly. So it's in the western Pacific Ocean according to Britannica. So thank you for being such a good horse. Yeah. I think digging in as much as possible to the background of someone like Lonnie really helps to inform us of her struggles, and it gives her memory greater depth.

0:11:41
All that being said, while living in Saipan, Lonnie embraced her true identity in life. Those closest to her, and I found this a little bit surprising, but in fact everyone around her were quite accepting. Greg Myles, who was her uncle, was quoted by the southern poverty law center intelligence report. Following her murder. He said that there was an open mindedness towards gender identity surrounding Lonnie and her community that was actually quite common in many of the South Pacific islands. And I was just like, think Christ. You know? Like, I love that. Fucking love that for you, baloney. And it's just it's just a thing, you know. It's just a -- Yeah. K? They don't care. Yeah. You you know, it's not not don't care in a so shot up way. It's a I don't care. Go ahead and live your life. Do you Right. Do you? Yes. Yeah. Exactly. It's very, like, free flowing and we just accept people as they are. And it's like, you're not doing any harm to anyone and we don't so we just don't take issue with it. And I'm just like, wow. I wonder what that's like. Yeah. Weird concept. I know. I'm moving. Are we? She's like, well, I'm gonna follow you, so where are we going?

0:13:14
Culturally, it seems that it is understood that some individuals are born in the wrong body. Again, just wild. Where do we gotta go to get some of that? Oh, the South Pacific. According to him, this never presented an issue for Lonnie's family either. Greg said that many of the children in the extended family referred to Lonnie as auntie, which really warms my heart. I'm just like it's so precious. And is, like, definitely culturally I mean, certainly not exclusive to the South Pacific, but I mean, that's a term of endearment for a beloved relative and, you know, implies a female gender identity and I just thought that was really sweet. That is sweet. And I mention it really just because I think that all too often, people that find themselves in long issues don't have such a tremendously supportive village surrounding them.

0:14:22
In nineteen ninety seven, Lonnie moved from the Mariana Islands to the mainland of the United States. She spent time in Seattle and Poland in Washington State. Before moving on to Eugene, eventually settling into an area just outside of Portland, Oregon known as Aloha. Okay. Just an aside, but whenever we hear people talking about aloha, they're always referring to it as aloha. Like, you know, I heard a couple of different news stories and, like, even other podcasts where they were talking about, you know, that that's where she was living at the time.

0:15:05
And I was like, oh, you guys are talking about Lonnie. I'm gonna forgive you, but a low high. I know. I mean, it's spelled just like a low high. I know. It is locals. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the town I'm in Salem, Massachusetts, and the town next to us is spelled p e a BODY. Right. And everybody pronounces it, yeah, like Rocky and Mo and Columbus, your Peabody. It's it's Peabody. Peabody. Oh, that's cute. The Peabody's museum is here. The kids go to Peabody, Peabody's right over the board. Like, you can't Like, I've lived here long enough that I can't not say it that way. And so now when I hear Rocky and Bowling Club, I'm like, what are they saying? Is that useful? But nobody looks it up.

0:15:56
And so this is big in the news at the moment because of the Anna Walsh case. Mhmm. And some of her effects. So not her means, but but but some of the the the items were retrieved from the PVD Transfer station.

0:16:17
And I can tell right away when when I hear a podcast or a news start talking about it. And I'm like, oh, here it comes. Man, here it comes. All you all you have to do is listen to a local newscast first. Five seconds to go for it. Give it a try. No. It's peabody. Okay. That's where it is.

0:16:35
That's a tough one too because, like, you look at it and you're like, yeah, I can say that. It's you're a little hock peabody. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I wasn't aware that that's how I mean, and now I'm like, I'm gonna be doing the same thing every time I hear.

0:16:51
Any of the updates. And Peabody. Peabody. Peabody. Peabody. Yeah. I figured somehow you live in Massachusetts that was gonna come up. And Cassie might be really mad at me for this case, but she's not gonna be mad at me. For long because she's gonna be super excited to talk to you about your house in Salem, Massachusetts. Yes. Or was it haunted? Indeed. Oh, are you coming back on the show? Are you talking about it today? What are we doing this? I'm excited. It's either both. You know? She's like, It's your show, so you tell me. Yeah. I guess we should let Caitlyn finish first. I guess.

0:17:36
So Aloha, not Aloha. It's about ten miles west of the city of Portland. This part of town has actually been developing really rapidly in the last two decades in particular, but I would say in, you know, the early 2000s, two thousand one specifically, you can kind of think of this as sort of a bedroom community. Certainly less so these days than it was back then.dating back to two thousand one, I think it was definitely considered a relatively safe and a pretty quiet suburban area? Yeah. You think? No. You think so? I haven't given you much more than just aloha, but you're gonna be able to triangulate this real quick. She's so uncomfortable.

0:18:23
Well, I just remember being, like, what middle school age then and we just walked around the town. Like, you know, there wasn't anything creepy that happened that I am aware of anyway. Well, there were definitely some things. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. There were definitely some things, but I mean, it's the type of area where a lot of times Up until probably we were about high school age at a certain point then, you know, you start driving, but it was very normal to just see kids walking, like, you know, a mile, two miles to the nearest you know, from one campus to another or walk into the grocery store, everybody hangs out in the deli department at Fred Myers. Oh, yeah. I was never invited. You just gotta show up. Neither was high. It's okay. It's a bit of a walk for you. It's a long walk. God.

0:19:23
But there in Aloha, Lonnie worked as an assembly and quality control specialist for a short time. Which sounds like a job I could absolutely not do at all. Cassie backed me up here. I just think of Alf when he's testing out the jack in the box thing. Yeah. And the pods will be that. I don't know. That just sounds like a job I'm not equipped for.coworkers recalled that she was a mild mannered and incredibly warm person. So if you were hoping that it would be less heartbreaking because she was secretly a dick, I bet news on that front. Martin, who was her cousin's husband, said she was quite gifted at making others laugh when they were feeling down. Now, Lonnie was temporarily unemployed in August of two thousand one.

0:20:20
She lived in Hillsboro, actually a small section of neighborhood that locals know as Reedville. With some of her extended family at the time along Southwest Cornelia's Pass Road. Now everybody pause and I realize that I'm the only one along with Kate that can see Cassie's face, but just we're gonna pause for reaction. She's I mean, I know exactly where it's at. Yeah. Her discomfort is growing. Just for a given time. Who lives here? It's highly uncomfortable right now. Yeah.

0:20:58
On Saturday, August twenty fifth, Lonnie left home just before midnight wearing a pair of designer and you guys legend acid washed jeans. Oh, yeah. And a gray sweat shirt. White sneakers with her fingernails painted green. Oh, I know. Hashtag goals. She was five nine and about a hundred and thirty pounds, which I am five foot and I don't think I could say that today. So Wait is just a number. Fashioning style. Oh, yes. Yeah. Her long hair was naturally dark, but was tinted red at the time. It actually was really pretty. Oh, cute. Yeah.

0:21:46
The weather at this time of year is fairly warm, but can actually cool down fairly significantly in the evening hours. So it's not unusual for someone to be wearing shorts or other summer attire during the day and then change into jeans to go out for a late dinner or for a movie or whatever. So I don't know what Lonnie had warned earlier in the day, but I just felt like I wanted to add that for context because at the end of August in a lot of places, you would not be caught dead in like a sweatshirt and jeans. So it's a lot cooler here if you haven't visited. Yeah.

0:22:26
On a weekend evening like this, Lani usually frequented bars along southwest Tualatin Valley Highway. Or TV highway as it's known in the area. I was like, wait, test. I don't even know what that is. It's too long. To a la tan. Yeah. The GPS can never say it right either. Yeah. That's a tough one to And then if you have to spell it out for somebody on customer service like calls or something, it's unclear what her exact plans were on this evening or precisely where she was the entire evening, but we do have some information about her whereabouts on this, of course, the evening and question.

0:23:12
She was spotted at the Golden Fountain lounge on Southwest Canyon Road in Beaverton at one point, though reportedly she didn't stay long. It's kind of unclear exactly how long she was there, which is interesting because I do think we have a pretty clear timeline of other little sections, little chunks of her whereabouts for that evening. So struck me as odd, but I'm not exactly sure why that is. You know, maybe she just falls off CCTV footage and They lose her for a little bit. I'm not sure. I don't like it.

0:23:54
She walked along TV highway in the direct of Murray Boulevard headed towards a seven eleven near the intersection, which I can actually picture this seven eleven. Mhmm. There's been a little road work done in that area, so it might look a little different. But Yeah. Yeah. I think in general, it's like I can very clearly picture it and it's just really eerie how much of this case. I'm able to clearly visualize its Inside that seven eleven, she is seen on surveillance cameras having a conversation with another woman at two ten AM. So at this point, it's probably been about two hours since she's left home. It's not a huge chunk of time, especially considering that's, like, not exactly a short walk from down, you know, that end of Canyon Road all the way up. Bonnie apparently visited the seven eleven often. So this wasn't really unusual. It's just kind of more a part of the timeline.

0:25:02
At approximately three thirty AM, near TV Highway and hundred and forty first Avenue, she flagged down two police officers that were driving by. Normally, this might be where you'd suspect that this is where things began to go wrong. I feel like a lot of cases we've talked about that's kinda where things go sideways. Yeah. We're certainly hearing about it in the news, but not so. She had whoever flagged them down and it was simply to ask them for a ride. Oh. And I'm like, wait. So she flags down police officers for a ride.

0:25:47
And somehow, she still ends up not surviving. She This is obviously the night that she's killed. How does that happen? Oh my goodness. Did they give her a ride? They did not. I was gonna why not? Well, I just won't. Cops won't. Yeah. And and I understand that that tends to be a common practice. In this case, it's kind of a it's like, goddamn it. It's just a shit situation. The way it's supposed to be done.

0:26:25
Often, there's a lot of times where people -- Yeah. -- who end up victims of any sort of crime have had interactions with cops. And if cops perhaps focused on community support rather than perceived power and apportionment and, you know, keeping people alive rather than not That'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Unfortunately, in this particular case, there was just a literal misunderstanding and the nature of it and Cassie, you're gonna be able to tell right away because the language barrier. Oh. There's some confusion there. And I'm just I'm gonna I'll get through this next part and I'll you'll understand. I'm just like, this just kills me. It absolutely kills me. So officer Brandon Herring had difficulty understanding some of the conversation apparently because of Loni's accent.

0:27:36
They believed that Loni wished to be driven all the way to the nearby town of Cornelius. Rather than literally just right down the road on Cornelius Pass Road. So they thought, you know, okay, well, we're gonna offer to call a cab or we we can call a friend or a relative for you. Because they just were not gonna be able to take her the roughly ten miles northwest of where she had flagged them down. That's a little bit longer and it's out side of the area that they should be patrolling. And I'm like, damn it. I mean, but realistically, like, in most jurisdictions -- Yeah. -- police won't give you a ride ten feet down the road. It's like the I mean, that is true. And there are certain justifications for that -- Yeah. -- which I we have feelings about. I've I've worked close. I worked in the criminal justice system. I worked closely with cops, and I understand that they are hampered by rules. Yeah. So maybe that's changed the rules, but we're looking at twenty one years ago. So twenty two years ago, almost. So, okay. Alright. We things were things were all different. I would think. Yeah.

0:28:58
And Bonnie just didn't wanna spend money on tab. And then, of course, you know, it's three thirty in the morning, and she doesn't want them to call somebody and, you know, wake them up at that early morning hours. She's like, I don't wanna disturb anyone else at this time of the morning. Oh. Which, I mean, very sweet that she didn't wanna do that. But at the same time, I'm sure that nearly anyone in her life would be happy to come and pick her up to make sure that she made home safely. So that's one of those tough ones where, you know, you feel a little bit heartbroken for what could have been, I guess. Yeah. And I'm sure everyone that she knew would agree that they would go pick her up. She was sounded like she was very beloved. Yeah. If they had realized that she was referring to Cornelius Pass Road, that was a very short drive from where they stood. And I'm guessing that that night would have ended very differently. It sounds like specifically just the length of the drive that they assumed she wanted them to take her was kind of the deal breaker. I mean, for those of you that aren't locals, right around this stretch of road is where Hillsborough and Beaverton roughly meet. Just a handful of years ago, I worked at a business that was situated just a couple of blocks down from this very corner. And Courtney Lias is a bit of a track. I mean, it's a minimum of ten miles. And, sadly, it's the last known location where Loni was seen alive.

0:30:40
It's like I kind of it's a tough one because I'm like, I it's not that the necessary necessarily did anything wrong, but it's like they don't always have the best tools to deal with this stuff. It's just like, fuck it sucks. Yeah. It fucking sucks. And, you know, they probably feel fucking terrible. I hope so. Frankly, honestly Yeah. That's that's not visceral against cop. That's -- Yeah. -- that you had the humanity within you to feel bad. Yeah. You know, I wish, you know, I I I feel bad when you know, if I learn sometimes that, like, oh, I just missed an accident. Yeah. You know, or Exactly. See an accident happen or something. And I feel bad, like, oh, I wish I could've like, I I'm I'm sort of geared to help probably really shouldn't. Times. But there's times where it's, like, there's nothing I can do.

0:31:32
Some of the others have a highway, or I learned that the accident happened right after I went by or whatever where it's like, oh, I wish I coulda. You know? And so it's just that those -- Absolutely. -- it's those near misses that are the worst. Yeah. I have chills right now. There's no way that either of you guys could have known this, but we literally just had that experience last night. Oh.

0:31:59
I was on the other side of the freeway because we saw a police vehicle come up behind us and holy shit were they hauling ass. And the cop finally got to a point where he stopped, and he's on the left hand side of the freeway. And I'm I'm in a very major freeway. And he gets out and he hopped the median. And I couldn't really clearly see what had happened on the other side, but I'm like, oh, man. It's like that you just feel for whoever, like, he's rushing to try to help.

0:32:36
Oh. Oh. Just had a feeling of dread after that. Well, you're so sensitive too. You probably picked up on Yeah. Someone's energy while you're passing by. Something for sure. You a sponge. I mean, I even feel bad when when there is an accident and it seems contained. And so I I feel guilty passing by No. Right? I I don't feel guilty about anything ever. I guilt is nothing I do. I I wish I could help to me.

0:33:11
But but, like, so I I have driven out there. I've been in Hillsborough and Beaverton and and you're is nearby. I don't I don't have permission to use their name, but a a close front of mine. Lives in in Hillsboro, and so I've spent some time there and up here. So I don't know where we're talking about that. I I do. I think I I mean, and there's a there's a a full restaurant that's amazing. That's right down that area right now. I I don't What type of restaurant? I didn't It's called Fucking. Oh. Yeah. So It's really popular. It's really good. It should be and so, anyway, it but I'll hear, you know, so mean, route ninety comes all the way out here as well. And so we have the same kind of thing.

0:33:57
And I and I feel bad when the exit seems like it's contained in, you know, a box of traffic or some some space, you know, quarter mile, whatever. And then there's this span where the cars stopped by the accident are just stuck. Yeah. And you get past the next exit and you see other cars coming and they don't know. Oh, I know. And god. I just wish I had some sort of like How can I wear her? Or she's been like, pull off now, go use the bathroom and get a drink for the love of God. Like, you're gonna have a terrible time. Just go around, you know, but there's something you could do. So Yeah. No. That's true. It's a kind of a helpless feeling. It's awful.

0:34:43
On Sunday, August twenty six, Her body was discovered in what was described as an overgrown field by a teenage girl who was out jogging. Oh, no. This is why you don't jog. Right. I mean, it's one of many reasons not to jog. I would argue, I could produce a list. I mean, as long as I am tall, which isn't saying much, but, you know, there's been a lot of reasons. But, yeah, that's the one that poor kid. I know. I mean, she was, like, sixteen years old. Who is going out this early in the morning on a Sunday to jog? A teenager keeps you on the track team. I must have been. It's the only explanation.

0:35:31
Lani's body was left there following the horrific attack that took her life. For context, this is about four miles south of Hillsboro on a stretch of Southwest Farmington Road. That remains to this day actually fairly rural still. Almost a farmland type area near Rood Bridge Road. Gotcha. That's, like, right by the high school too. Right? Or is that little bit further away? No. It's very close. It's I I mean, for Hillsborough kids, it's basically walking distance to the high school from there. Yeah. Her body was left hidden just beyond the tree line. Lani was beaten really severely. Her cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head and face, likely inflicted with a blunt instrument of some kind. They suspect maybe a jack or a tire iron, which is just horrific because it's kind of a weapon of opportunity, I would think.

0:36:41
This was another topic that her uncle, Greg Miles, spoke to the intelligence report about, stating that some of her fingertips had been cut off. What? And that her face had been virtually smashed in. Were they trying to, like, hide the identity or something? You know, it seems like that might have well, he definitely felt like it was a crime that had definitely been committed in a rage. And there definitely was sort of some speculation that the removal of some of Loni's fingertips by her killer could have been either an expression of rage, but also some suspected. It may have also been an effort to to thwart her identification. Yeah.

0:37:34
But if you just remove some of them, I guess it doesn't really that doesn't really make sense. I don't know. Yeah. I I mean, I mean, not really sure what to make it that. Was there a sexual element to it? There was not. So And that was something That's what I wonder is did they this because there can be a sexual on to to crime without sex happening? Yeah. Absolutely. And in which case you may opt not to get involved with the genitalia in any way, you know, the genital region, the chest region, you may opt not See that. But if it's rage, if it was I thought I was picking a girl up -- Mhmm. Mhmm. -- you know, and this isn't a girl with that kind of attitude.

0:38:22
And now, what do you attack to remove someone's identity if you're gonna leave the Gentile intact? You know, then maybe it wasn't so much the Fingerprints as the fingernails? And, you know, that's an interesting point because I thought, you know, with the painted nails, I mean, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch, but it's it is kind of odd because, again, it's not necessarily all of the fingertips. But to me, that kind of makes sense. You know, it's just it feels like, you know, removing aspects of somebody's identity, including -- Yeah. -- removing aspects of someone's identity. Yeah. And ultimately, I think if nothing else, this really comes down to a level of sort of devaluing someone and it's I mean, what I would think of as desecration. Mhmm. And, I mean, that's just it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

0:39:30
How old does she? Twenty eight. So she's a little bit older than I am then. And because I I was twenty four I turned twenty four in two thousand one. And that's a that's a time where we still used words like transvestite and cross dress shirts. Yeah. But it was no longer a pejorative. Like, it wasn't name calling as much So it was like it was it was sort of on the scene, but the idea of being fully transgender was not something that was super common, and it was still diagnosable as mental illness. Oh, where was it? Yeah. You know yeah. They a a so I I graduated with my my doctorate in two thousand five.

0:40:24
And a a classmate of mine did her dissertation on gender identity disorder as it was called then. Oh, wow. And And, I mean, to her credit, it was about how, hey, let's not call this a disorder. Yeah. Okay. She's like, maybe we don't. She's like, maybe we could not end it in it. It is no longer, you know, since then. Sure. The the the manual with which we diagnosed people has been updated and that's been taken out. But, you know, it was pretty heavily pathologized.

0:41:06
You know, in in Massachusetts, I worked in a locked state psychiatric hospital, which is sort of long term stay, sort of things. And one of my patients whom I can't name, but she was the first person in Massachusetts to my knowledge, who had spent time incarcerated in both men in women's facilities. Oh, well, because she was really interesting. Yeah. Assigned mail at birth.

0:41:41
And so after the first crimes that she committed, she was sort of automatically placed in a men's prison and to their credit. First of all, sexual assault is not as common in person as people think it is. But secondly, to their credit, they did acknowledge her safety risks and keep her in solitary, but flipside to solitary? Is it solitary? Right. Exactly. That takes on someone's mental health. So it's sort of a do you wanna go crazy or do you wanna die? Like, those are sort of the choices that you're given. This is not an entirely great set of choices.

0:42:20
But so the second time, there was a subsequent time, I can't say a second time, but a subsequent time that she was arrested, she was placed in a women's facility. And that was considered at the time. So this would have been she doesn't three, two thousand four, which before I graduated, I was I was doing the internship. And at the time, it it was considered pretty progressive. To -- Yeah. -- to place it like, sit with me for a second to place a woman in a woman's prison. Right. Right. Yeah.

0:42:53
But she also then ended up in the psychiatric hospital because life had not been kind to her since she had some legitimate mental illnesses as you know, they tend to do with you. Yeah. Yeah. And and then it was just a matter of, like so the the hospitals are mixed gender. Here. Mhmm. And they try to put usually, it's two people pull a room, same sex. Sure. They will try to put people in solo rooms if there's any sort of risk of either acting out or being acted out of Han. And so she had a solo room.

0:43:34
And I think that's I mean, it's a tough situation because, of course, you know, a lot of those facilities. I mean, if you're nearing capacity or already at or overcapacity, some of those things that it can be so difficult to accommodate and make sure that that it has to be I mean, it just has to be. Mhmm. Oh, god. Oh, back to the to the fingers. Back to the fingers. Okay. Yeah.

0:44:09
But obviously, it didn't pan out if they were trying to thwart identification, that was not gonna work. But obviously, it's just a very brutal act. I mean, regardless of why you're doing that, that is just an act of brutality against another human that I would hope that none of us can understand. I mean, in a million years. Except maybe the psychologist. Understand maybe has duality based on we know -- Yes. -- if it Right. Sure. Well, and based on what we know. That's but that's part of why I like, I my job would often be to sit down and ask somebody.

0:44:52
Mhmm. Like, I've had conversations that involve things like, literally, why did you try and remove the fingertips? Like and you have to ask those questions with a fairly straight face. Right. And it acts like I am not saying the words that I am about to say. But I'm gonna ask you, how many times did you hit her with the tire iron? Like, and and you have to you have to sort of check your own morality at the door. Mhmm. And I'm gonna introduce your world. And I'm gonna ask you questions, and I'm gonna do my best to understand. And now the trick is you you do your best to understand the person, but then you pick your own morality back up as you leave the room again. Of course, it's back into your own head because I think it's I know it's possible.

0:45:44
I watch colleagues break because they they it starts to make too much sense to them. Right. I mean, it it's breaking down who they are. And and that's that's the you have to sort of consciously I'm gonna check my logic and check my rationality at the door, and I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna enter your world. But then when we leave, your world stays here. And I'm going home. Yeah. Goodbye forever. Well, until tomorrow. Yeah. Or Yeah. Oh my goodness. What did I say every time I leave here? Goodbye forever. That sounds like sweet. You know what? I mean, that side of things, I think, is so interesting and really thinking about how you approach those things. And my partner does interrogation as part of his career field. And I have learned a lot from him in that regard. I know that I don't ever wanna play poker for money with either of you. Not a chance and hell. Not a snowflakes chance in hell. I I don't stand a chance. I'm just, like, way too transparent and I'm an over-sharer. It's I can't help myself.

0:47:12
This is one that I I'm curious what you make of this. Oddly, it was said that Lonnie didn't have broken fingernails. So it didn't seem like she had much of an opportunity to put up a fight. So it's a little bit unclear and without actually pulling up necessarily like autopsy report. And to be honest, I, you know, I as much as the details of it are so interesting for many of us, you know, that are interested in true crime and, you know, we care about these cases for a menagerie of reasons. I was like, I just don't know if I have it in me to get into the nitty gritty of, like, finger tip. Can you quantify that for me? But I'm curious, from your perspective, if somebody has removed part of the finger tip or the entirety of a finger tip, but not on every finger. So let's God, this is terrible. It's for argument's sake. It's probably done postmortem. It'd be my guess. Well, I mean, I would think so. You know, and that if somebody's coming at you with a tire iron, and it's funny that it's a tire, and it's not funny. You know, that it's funny. Yeah. But yeah. Would be funny. It's not funny.

0:48:39
So on December twenty sixth twenty twenty two, Kevin's through my husband's birthday, and which we don't celebrate in December because the twenty sixth is a crappy time to have a birthday, frankly. That's right. But, you know, still, we had we had dinner red cupcakes. That was great. And I was about to head upstairs to go to bed some evening.

0:49:02
And I by the way, I am deaf. Mostly I hear about, what, twenty five percent of what normal people hear. And so -- Yes. -- I'm just sort of doing my thing. And and, you know, and I had an upstairs and my husband stops. He's like, can you hear that? And I'm like, that's What do you think? What do you say? He means, like, I he said, then he said, I think someone just hit the house, which you have to understand my house says, it's away from the street a little bit, but it's up on a little hill. So nobody's gonna hit the house. Well, I'm like, what do you but I'm like, I don't know. But I I I as I said, you know, like, I I'm geared toward, like, getting involved and stepping in. And so I just walked out in my front porch. And he said, what are you doing? You know? But I'm like, I if you think something's going on and what's going on is across the street, one over.

0:49:59
There's a house that we had been referring to as the meth house. Which You know, Salem's not a super messy place, like, in general. But this one house has had a lot of turnover in the past year. And so we started referring to it as the Meth-house, so that it turns out we were probably accurate. List of us.

0:50:20
And so this young gentleman is screaming. He's standing outside. He's screaming at the occupants of the house. And he's holding a tire. Oh my god. And I'm like and and and I just I I my question, which often will deescalate things, one would hope. You know, you don't do the, hey, what's going on? That kind of thing that can be kind of aggressive. Instead, I was like, hey, are you safe? Oh, Are you safe? Do you you know, is there something that I can help you with right now? Are you safe? And and and he did come down for a second. He sort of lowered the the weapon and he he started sort of ranting to me about they have my they have my my stuff in the house and And I and I was like, okay. I okay. I can't like, you can't go in my house and I I don't Like, are you but are you safe? Do you need me to call anybody? That's what I can do for you right now is -- Right. -- to calling me. And he was like, No. I'll just get it myself, and he turns around and he bar like, bolts up their front steps with the tire iron and breaks the plate glass window. Oh my god. That was pretty much my reaction. And so I by by through the process of this, as soon as he turns around and says, no. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna get myself. I get on the phone and I'm calling nine one one. So no. I'm the caller on nine one one while he's breaking the glass. Oh my goodness. And so I can tell you that the entire iron is suddenly a lot longer.

0:52:03
Of an instrument with the thing about it is that it's narrow and rain. You know, especially if you're sort of holding the hook end in in in swinging with the other one. It'd be easy to hit to hit somebody and and kill them. You know, you knocked them out. Before the one or two really dead. And they're not you know, it's done. It's not like like like with a physical assault or like a a baseball bat or something. You get your hands up and now the fingernails can break. That makes a lot of sense. You know, a tyrin. You can you can hit somebody and kind of skip the hand part altogether, you know, and just go directly to the, you know, the tire iron connected to the head bone. I think that's how the song goes. Right? Like, that's that's how it goes. And, like, the removal of fingertips or the removal of any body part at all. Mhmm.

0:52:58
Generally is not something that is done on a living victim.

0:53:04
Once in a great while. Sylvia Lykins is an example of of a torture case that that wish she lived for an extended amount of time with various tortures to her body. But by and large, that kind of disfigurement and dehumanization happens after the death. No. And and and, frankly, I I hope. Yeah. I think we all do. You know? And so because, like, look after I'm dead, I don't care. Right. Mhmm. Like, any more like, I I I reserved the right to haunt. Your dreams and your Absolutely. You're you're you're only if I have to. But that you know, when once once you're beyond feeling, Of course. Yeah. Usually, that's when that's when, you know, it's a it's sort of a panicked sloppy cleanup kind of. Mindset to do those sorts of things? Yeah.

0:54:10
I have a question. I don't know if you're gonna get into it. Did were the fingers tipped there or did they take them. You know, that's another I'm not sure. It's unclear. It does sound like she was killed in one place and her body was discovered in another. Right. That would make sense. Okay.

0:54:33
The thing that it's like and it's I feel like this is probably just to be able to convey the question that I have about the fingertips, like, in light of the full picture of the forensic evidence, at least that without doing a FOIA request of some sort that, you know, I have, it's almost like the way I would have to word it, it's like it's too graphic and I don't wanna sensationalize in that way with this case, but I'm very curious about In the instance where they've removed maybe some of the fingertips, And I'm thinking it's so hard not knowing exactly, like, how much of the finger tip did they actually like you were saying? You know, they cut off the entire finger, you know, up to kind of that first knuckle, basically, and they've taken the nails. Like, what is the what is the what's the purpose otherwise? Like, I mean, it it's not thwarting the identification unless you take all of them. So, I mean, is that just about mutilation? Like I mean, it could be as simple as oh, shit. This is harder than I thought it was gonna be. I quit. Yeah.

0:56:06
Like, that happens a lot where people do you you've they they commit a crime. They think I'm going to obliterate this person's identity and get away. And this usually that an indication that there's a connection between victim and perpetrator? Because otherwise, why do you care? Right? Right. Right? Like, I don't care. If if I've killed a stranger, I don't care if you figure out who they are because there's no connection between us. But if I kill somebody, I know. I've got you know, on a Walsh case. Right?

0:56:36
Like, there's -- Mhmm. -- motivation to try and obscure the identity in the location because there's a clear connection between Anna Wallace and Brian Wallace as a, as a parallel. And so that that would make me wonder, like, why do you need to remove this person's identity? Are they a stand in for somebody? In your life? Right. That's a possibility. And now you're mad at them for not actually being dead standing. Or do you know them? And you're trying to make sure that you have time to get away.

0:57:15
And the thing about that is that sometimes people in the process of trying to hide their crime, trying to, like, dismiss look. I don't wanna say this in a positive way, but I don't know how else to say it. Is that dismemberment is work? It I mean, but it is, though. So you know, like, it's work. And it takes time. And if you're safe that she was last seen alive at three thirty approximately in the morning -- Yeah. Three thirty AM. -- then was found at six AM. Around that time. That's not a ton of time. You know, it takes time to pick someone up. It takes time to beat them to them. It takes time to try and obscure their identity then it takes time to move the body. And and, you know, sun is starting to come up. You're starting to really panic. Because you definitely don't wanna be seen in daylight. You don't want your car to be seen. And so you quit and that makes a lot of sense.

0:58:20
For me, it's just been really bothersome because it's like, this feels very incomplete, and I think maybe that's a particularly for someone who's I mean, I'm very interested in this, but I'm obviously not an expert. And just coming from a layman's perspective, you know, you do kind of think, like, well, they're gonna do it this way or they're gonna do that. And it's like, well, they probably thought they were gonna do it this way or, you know, whatever. But the reality of it. And so, I mean, it's just an interesting thing to keep in mind that it's like the reality of the situation is then it takes time. I mean, thank God. It does. Thank God. Right. For real.

0:59:06
And and I mean, and this is I'm I'm unabashedly against gun ownership because guns don't take time. Right. You can do you can wreak incredible havoc. Really fast with that. And other methods, you can kill people with all kinds of things, but they take longer.

0:59:26
Another thing that I was just thinking of is if if she was transported from one place to another, I would need to know, like, were the fingertips cut cleanly or were they maybe broken off by slamming them in the trunk? And that's a great I mean, it's it's one of those things where almost I'm like, I again, hope that, honestly, hope that because -- Right. -- the the the more extreme the behavior whether the victim is Still alive or post mortem. Mhmm. The more extreme the behavior is such as removing body parts implies a really disordered mind. And -- Right. -- that's scary. It is scary. God. What? I mean, we graduated in two thousand seven from a high school that I mean, for all intents and purposes, it's not actual walking distance from this spot, but I remember I mean, really vaguely, but I remember hearing about this case. So did they ever find the perpetrator? What do you think? It's not sounding good. No. No, I wish. I mean, I've it's one of those cases because especially like you say, some of these details really inform us as far as like, wow, this is someone that we should be extremely fearful of. Like, as a community, we should be very invested in finding this perpetrator. Like, that's horrifying.

1:01:15
Still, there was little evidence available at the scene. What that told investigators at the time was that she had been murdered elsewhere and her body was only disposed of afterward where it had been found. Her time of death was estimated to be somewhere between the hours of three thirty and five AM. This window leaves just about a ninety minute period after she interacted with the police officers on TV highway during which she was brutally attacked and murdered. Her body was moved. I mean, all of the things that you mentioned, it's the location where her body was found was approximately nine miles away from where the police had encountered her. This also gave them another very important piece of the puzzle. Because there was literally no way that she could have traveled that far on foot in that time. She just couldn't. I mean, maybe an Olympic sprinter. I doubt it. No. Well, she wasn't headed that direction. Was she No. That wasn't her goal to get over in that area? No. I mean, this is all, like, such a if you think about it like a small circle of geographic locations, but no. I mean, it's not really it's certainly way overshooting where she lived at the time.

1:02:44
Sexual assault and robbery were both ruled unlikely motives fairly early on. The medical examiner did not produce any findings indicating that there were signs of recent sexual activity. There was also still cash on her person when the body was discovered. Sadly, this final fatal act was not the only instance in which Lonnie had encountered violence or bigotry. She had actually endured two other assaults since moving to the Portland area, neither of which were reported to law enforcement, her family stated that she just honestly didn't believe anything would or could be done. Oh.

1:03:33
Washington County Sheriff's Detective Mike O'Connell has long speculated that her gender identity may have played a role in her death. As it had with another previous to put it extremely mildly a bad d encounter. She'd been forced out of her date's vehicle after he realized her biological or anatomical gender. This is literally exactly what you mentioned. This exact example, Kate, and In any case, official statements released by law enforcement authorities indicate that they believe this to be the case, that she was specifically targeted because of her gender identity. So kind of makes me lean towards that the fingers were, you know, like you said, more than likely post mortem, but that they were taken intentionally. I don't have a lot to go on in a case where there's not an instance of sexual assault and I'm like, I don't know what else they would be basing that on, but seems reasonable. I think. Were they just basing it off of her past encounters? I mean, in that, I suppose, could be. Or maybe they know something else that well, I didn't get put out. Yeah. Of course, we know that in so many cases, that happens, they have to hold certain details back because only one person's gonna know those details. But because obviously, this was all probably starting to appear that it might shape up nice and neat. Somehow. Now I have bad news. So Lani's case would sadly take a backseat to other world news as world events rapidly change the landscape, not only for Americans, but in some sense, kind of for people all over the world.

1:05:43
A public rally to raise awareness of the crime committed by Lonnie's killer was scheduled to take place a few weeks following her murder. The notice was published in the AM edition of newspapers on Tuesday, September eleventh of two thousand one. Shit. Yeah. Her memorial service was held in October before the crime would end up fading into relative obscurity.

1:06:14
Basic Rights Oregon and other LGBTQ organizations have made efforts to keep Lonnie's story alive in the hopes that the pursuit of justice would not prove fruitless. Rothorpe, the executive director of basic rights Oregon, said in two thousand two that prejudice against the trans population dehumanizes. In two thousand three, basic rights Oregon introduced SB one thousand to the Oregon State Senate hoping to add gender identity under hate crime laws, specifically citing Lonnie's case with the further hope of possibly getting the case additional coverage and or funding through local police or, I mean, how? Maybe if they could swing it, even the FBI. The bill was killed in committee by Karen Minnis, Minas, I know you're shocked. She's a Republican. Just, you know, the party that callously disregards and blatantly victimizes minorities. That's fine. In two thousand five, she would also oppose civil unions for same sex couples because it's not enough to allow them to be beaten or murdered but they shouldn't be allowed to have the same privileges as the rest of Oregon's god fearing couples. Ultimately, s p one thousand would be passed, but it would be missing critical protections that were considered Critical, can I say again, critical to the bill, although some hailed it as a success?

1:07:56
This failure seemed to mean that Lonnie's case and potentially countless others like it would remain labeled as bias based crime. Really, I had no idea that that wouldn't be a hate crime. Yeah. Wow. So it could not technically be labeled a hate crime. Which meant that far fewer people would ever even hear about the case. It's a confusing topic that I've kind of done my best to give you guys, like, the bullet points because it's a lot of It's a lot of back and forth in the legislature and different aspects of our government that I have a very cursory understanding of. I'm like, I have a podcast and a master's degree, and I feel stupid.

1:08:53
Since then, Governor Kate Brown, our currently exiting governor, signed House Bill thirty forty one, which clarified existing anti discrimination protections by adding gender identity to all Oregon laws that use sexual orientation in the text of the law, which these are sometimes different things, guys. This legislation expanded on the work of the attorney general's hate crimes task force via senate bill five seven seven. Which created a protected class for gender identity in Oregon. Anyone wanna guess what ear? Twenty twenty two. Twenty nineteen. Not a lot better. Wow. That took a while. Yeah. Take a minute. But of course, bigotry in nearly any form hasn't really gone anywhere.

1:09:51
Detective O'Connell received a call back in two thousand and nine, questioning, why he was wasting so much time on this case? And he was disgusted. And though members of the Washington County Sheriff's Department made statements to the press over the next several years. Law enforcement was unable to develop any new leads. And without much evidence to go on, it hasn't been easy. As I wrote my notes, I'm stunned to learn that Lonnie was believed to be the first faith colony victim of a hate crime in Washington County. Her case is included in the playing cards distributed to local jails or prisons, and she is the five of hearts. Another thing worth noting is that I have not been able to verify whether there is still a four thousand dollars reward for information leading to the rest of her killer. But if you have information, please reach out to law enforcement. Obviously, we'll include that in the show notes. Keep that in mind as I share this next part of the case. I actually reached out to a media representative for Washington County for the sheriff's department, as well as crime stoppers who had previously offered reward money. And neither of them weren't able to get back to me as far as whether or not there's still a reward.

1:11:30
In two thousand two, investigators revealed that two men had been seen near the crime scene near Farmington Road. They'd been driving a small to midsized SUV. A man driving east on Farmington Road past the vehicle as it was backing up the dirt road that Loni was found on. One of the men was in the vehicle and one was weaving animatedly in the glare of the headlights of the vehicle. These two individuals are believed to have been disposing of Lonnie's body. A prison informant offered a tip to law enforcement in exchange in exchange for a reduced sentence. This led them to a vehicle they believed to be used to dispose of Lonnie's body. However, this turned out to be a dead end. And that's literally it. That is all she wrote. Well, well, that's disappointing. God. Okay.

1:12:37
I hate it when I make myself feel things. I'm a fucking monster. It's just the the part about, like, having somebody call the detective that's working on a cold case and say, like, why are you wasting time on this? I know that's gross. Like, why would you go out of your way to even say that? Like, jeez, Christ. Don't you have to buy groceries and shit? Like, where are you finding the time? You know? Like Do you think it was possibly the murderer? I mean, who knows? I don't know. I think sometimes people want attention and whether it's because they actually commit that crime or they're just fucking hot garbage sauce trash people. I don't know. But god. Makes me really upset. That sucks.

1:13:40
I don't always cry when we record by the one who's doing it. This is actually kinda funny to do. So it's fun. He doesn't know any better. One thing at a time. It's it's it's fun. Oh, yeah. She's, like, one out of one times that I recorded with them. She was crying. So She crying. She's just crying. She just walked out of an account next to me. To make sure I have that again. It's good. Oh, good. I've set a precedent. Okay. So, I mean, there's This is a really tough one to transition, but we usually do our little taro reading and sometimes sometimes we get like a message that is a little bit hopeful about, you know, a case like this that's unsolved or We'll see. Well, I'm trying to see what we got. Yeah. Well, are you ready for the taro? Alright. So we just want a little deeper insight into Lonnie's story. Do you wanna cut the cards, or do you want me to do it? You're like What do you what do you feel like? I think she feels like she wants to do it. Okay. I'll do it. You're just so, like, connected, I feel like.

1:15:00
We got that card like three times already. What is happening? Yeah. It's the king of pentacles. In reverse, Holy shit. This is actually I didn't think this was gonna work. But I didn't think it made sense. It works every time you think it's not gonna work. The universe knows what's up. Holy fucking shit. Okay. Alright. So can you see it? Yes. Kind of. Yes. So we drew the king of pentacles, and this deck is actually specifically one that I I was gifted this Christmas. It's the Pacific Northwest tarot deck. So it's all it's perfect. Yeah. It's like native plants and animals and Okay.

1:15:51
So our keywords are security, material success, pragmatism, stability, strength, and worldly power. And I think this makes a lot of sense when we talk about the description of the card. Just wait for it. Okay. In mini decks, this king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and a crown. Sometimes he appears with a bowl. Symbol of strength, virility and tenacity. I'm thinking, like, bowl, like, strength, virility. Let's just it's too weird. In a reading, he may represent an actual person. In which case, he's usually a mature man who exercises worldly power and authority. We drew it in the reverse, the king of pentacles in reverse indicates sluggishness, delays, and or obstacles to material success. Sometimes it shows low energy or insecurity. You feel stuck, but you don't have the drive to get you out of your breath.

1:17:05
If the card represents an actual person, he may be mercenary, coarse, dull witted, or even crapped. Sounds kinda like the person who might have done it. Or the system? Yeah. That too. It could be a lot of dilutive things. Well, I mean, mercenary Jesus. I mean, that's it. What does that mean? That's dark. Wanting stuff. Oh, okay. Well, and I think of mercenary as like mercenaries and, like, the militant sense too. Yeah. We'll yeah. We'll need to hurt you for stuff. Yeah. Mhmm. I mean -- I don't love that. -- and course, my God. I mean, which would fit well with the concept of of someone willing to assault based on perceived identity. Yeah. You're not who I thought you were in a literal biological sense, and so I'm gonna be eating death with a tire iron. That's pretty coarse.

1:18:17
You know, opting not to take the cash. Kind of all that sense means that the cash may have been blood stained? I mean, that's a really valid point. And so you don't wanna wander back into the seven eleven? Right. And have them be like, hey, dude, I can't help but notice that you're paying with money that's actively bloody stuff of that. Yeah. So, you know, beatings, like, usually, if you're if you're gonna rob somebody, you do that first. Right. That's And and then you you you beat them. So it doesn't sound like robbery was the motive. Yeah. And then they're not gonna take the money afterwards because probably wasn't in the rest condition. That's contaminated. Yeah. Well, I hate all of that. What happened to us? Full message that you are. I well, but that's what it says.

1:19:16
The card does kind of reflect. Yeah. I think more the reverse side, you know, the reverse side more sort of toward what kind of mindset do you need to do something like this? You need to be pretty coarse and dehumanizing and, you know, and mercenary maybe not wanting the cash, but wanting something. And willing to hurt to get it. That's not that's not far out of league from what we've been talking about. Oh my gosh. That I mean, that was so well put. I honestly have a previous day. See you. That's true today. Perfect. Yay. It was entirely not perfect. But no. It was. Yeah. Imperfection is perfect. Very young doll. Yeah. Alright. Well, thanks for coming on. It was so fun. I can't tell you much for you to come back. Yeah.

1:20:14
So for all of you that are listening, if you have any true crime or paranormal stories that you want us to share, maybe with the whole Pacific Northwest. Yes. We would love to read them on the pod. Yes. We will read them out loud. Not just in our hubs. Yes. They don't have to be from the Pacific Northwest if you would like to share. Email us at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com. It's all spelled out no special characters. Super duper easy peasy. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook. Same thing as the email at pnwhauntsandhomicides@gmail.com all spelled out, no special characters. Please also rate and review us on whatever platform you're listening to and check out our stories on social media because our meme game is hot. Mhmm. Agreed. And if you agree like Caitlyn, You can also find us on Patreon and support the show.

1:21:17
Bitchin. So I had a I had surgery yesterday, which I I get it stupid that I'm sitting in my desk now, but -- Oh my gosh. -- it's not like it's a high maintenance kind of like I've just sitting here, shouldn't bite as well, do something fun instead of moping. Yeah. Would you get all day? You know, like like you can't get it up?

1:22:13
And so yesterday, I'm literally sitting in the waiting room at the at the hospital. I'm already they've already given, like, They literally hand out, Adam, and she walked in the door. Fantastic. Where is this? Like, this is a great idea. Like, you just could double fist to them. You know? So I've heard of Ativan. And apparently, a thing that I do when I have Ativan is I invite people on my show. So it's just it's like sitting in the way to grow up a little bit stoned, inviting people on my podcast. And I was like, technology is wonderful. Nature's turning to to normal, you know. Did anyone say yes? Absolutely. Good. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, stay tuned for that because we are gonna have some really interesting guests coming up on your show. I don't know why it's for me as well. Really? No kidding. Hey, listen. Sometimes good things come out of a weird medical trip. I can barely. No one did any of that to Caitlyn. She's done enough.